Transcript
Evan
My name is Evan Fraser, and I'm the director of the Arrell Food Institute at the University of Guelph. This is part of a regular podcast series on how to feed the future in a way that is healthy, sustainable, and nutritious. Sometimes trying to achieve food security isn't just about doing the same things better, but actually doing something new altogether. Novel foods is a term to capture some of these emerging creative strategies and technologies that are supposed to address food insecurity. Novel foods can include growing or marketing new foods that have little or no history of consumption in a region, producing food that we currently consume in new ways, such as lab grown burger patties, or even designing new foods altogether, like fortified eggs or milk. In this episode, Alex Glaros and I focus on one type of novel food that might make your skin crawl: eating insects. Per pound, researchers have found that some species of insect have as much protein as livestock such as beef, but actually require less water, less land, and less feed to raise. Around the world, insects are regularly consumed. So why don't we do this here in Canada? In our first interview, Alex chats with Natalia Martinez, owner of Cookie Martinez, a Colombian street food business that specialises in everything from cricket empanadas to cricket kababs. Alex and Natalia discuss how she got involved is cooking with insects, and then talk about some of the opportunities and barriers for insect consumption here in Canada.
Alex
Good morning, Natalia. Thanks for being on our podcast today. I'm really looking forward to our discussion. This podcast is about novel foods, that is it's about new ways to produce food, things like I've grown hamburger patties, new ways to design food, like fortified eggs or greens, and what we'll chat about today, growing or marketing new foods with little to no history of consumption in a region, like edible insects in Toronto. So I was wondering if you can tell me a bit more about your business.
Natalia
It's not about the business, it is about a project that I started doing in 2013 with the Future Food Salon. The group includes education, there is food, which I'm the one who cooks with and with insects, there is art, there is music, there is a person who is doing the insect cultivation and harvest and everything. So it's a little, little pieces of the groups, and there's speakers and people who knows about them, the edible insects in entomology.
Alex
That sounds really interesting. And you know, we're talking about the future of food is it about making the food system more environmentally sustainable or economically sustainable or socially sustainable?
Natalia
Mostly a knowledge eating insects is more sustainable than eating any other meat is in, that is the main focus on, on about cooking with insects and educating people is being carved here in North America, because it's still like a novelty, no? Not everyone do it. They're not used to it and they think also that it's disgusting. Yes, it's about sustainability. All of this is about sustainability.
Alex
Thank you, why did you start cooking with insects?
Natalia
So the group, the person in charge, she approached me, and told me if I wanted to do some insect cookies. I used to make just a cookies for my business and I said okay, it was quite a challenge, and interesting and different. But since then, I started like not just cookies and I tried to do like a meal saying like regular food that you eat but you just integrated with the insects and how easy it is, and how anyone can do it.
Alex
Now, you touched upon that disgust factor. Do you... what are most people's reactions to your food? I mean obviously it's, it's delicious. But is there some kind of hesitation some fear of creepy crawlies?
Natalia
So not about fear because the insect is already dead so it's not gonna bite you. Hesitation? Yes. There's a lot of hesitation or like they don't want it but most people who approach to me about the insects they already know about it. They're interested they buy the insects, they contact me oh if I have any insects available. But mostly they know about it, and they have done it in one of their trips. They said oh, I went to Mexico. I went to Thailand and I ate it.
Alex
So we call insects a novel food and just like you talked about, you know, people might have tried it in in Thailand or somewhere else coming back to your, your background, and I understand your businesses is Colombian, is insect consumption in Colombia a common thing?
Natalia
So in Colombia, as far as we know, we eat something in certain regions, that is called big ants or hormigas cu lonas but in Region of Colombia is not something that you eat every day. It is like a snack, you buy it and it is a snack, but in that region. But it is not something that you have in your diet every day or every once in a while.
Alex
Do you think insect consumption will grow in places like Canada or the United States?
Natalia
Very, very slowly. It will. Maybe. I see it very slowly and extremely slowly. That is the culture of eating insects. Diet, in United States and Canada all relate in the diet and everything is very slow, even though here they sell it already, like Loblaws and some supermarkets. They insects some people buy it. Yes. Like sometimes they come to my store and buy some insects, but I think it is, it will take a huge amount of time like you go to other countries like in Asia and you find them in the market in big piles and then you just eat it is a straightforward and everything so I don't... it's gonna take I think many years then we can get to that point eating them like that.
Alex
It's a slow process.
Natalia
It still would be like a novelty or something.
Alex
Do you think it's important that insect consumption does grow in places like Canada and the United States?
Natalia
Yes, especially I think in this case, it is a big country. There is a big consumption of other meats and the sustainable part of eating meat, it is... it is quite crazy. I mean, you have to grow food to feed the, the meat and then we're eating it and it's a lot of things that have to go through and go even to other countries or even the Amazon grow the soy, I mean, even the water that is used, but like I said, that is gonna take a long time to tell people, "Hey, you can eat this instead."
Alex
Now, for the average person like me, can I buy my own insects to cook with? And is it difficult to learn how to cook with them?
Natalia
No. Normally, if you go to the same, I think these places that sell the insects, normally they sell it as a powder or already roasted. So normally easy. People buy it as a powder. I've been seen they use it to do smoothies, because they have lots of protein. And if you have them as a whole roasted, just put it into your food. So if he's already preparing everything, it is very easy to integrate it with food. That's why when I cook with the inserts I can show people look, you can do it too is very easy.
Alex
That education piece is really important for you, right?
Natalia
Yes, it is.
Alex
Just two final questions. Tell us about your biggest hits. What are some of the foods that you make that your customers can't resist?
Natalia
One of my favourite ones and actually one of the main customers liked most is the cricket empanadas. Because it's they fry it and everything everyone likes it. So it's like the same empanadas the corn flour that you made in Colombia make with insects, but like some of their recipes, I do give them away. Because this is for everyone.
Alex
That's great. I'll have to try one sometime.
Natalia
Have you tried some insects yourself?
Alex
I've had, I went to The Exhibition a few years ago and I had a cricket hotdog. That's the extent of my, my taste into, into insects but I want to get into it more because just like you say there's so many...
Natalia
Yeah! It's something even I don't know if there's a place where you can buy the insects powder and you can start doing your smoothies or shakes in the morning, and add it there.
Alex
And just one last question. Do you think insects are sort of the protein of the future?
Natalia
Yes, what I hope is that we can change our meat consumption even though I know it's not gonna change the whole, okay I'm not gonna meat ever in my life just insects, I know that is not gonna change but just to start adding it, and have less of the meats in adding it could be half and half so at least to have a little bit less impact on the sustainability of meat production. I know it's not gonna call forever. And no, people are not gonna change the whole diet. But at least if they can do a little bit and if you are those little bit from everyone that can do a little, they can change, they can help.
Alex
I think that's a great note to end on. Thanks so much for your time.
Evan
Alex, it's great to hear about insects on the menu happening so close to home. And it sounds like a big barrier for insect consumption is that disgust factor? It's also interesting to hear a first hand account of this from someone who sells insect based foods to people.
Alex
Absolutely, I found it really interesting that most of Natalia's customers have already consumed insects, and so might be a little more used to their flavour and texture.
Evan
I think this really highlights one of the main critiques of insect eating as it's currently done in Canada and in the US. In other words, many people think it's just a fad or a novelty for consumers, and especially those consumers who may be able to afford it.
Alex
Consider how people might be more or less willing to consume different insect products, for example, it's probably easier for people to accept eating a powdered cricket that they put into their morning smoothie, rather than something that's still actually looks like a cricket.
Evan
So now we've heard a little bit from the consumer side, let's take a look at the production side of things.
Alex
We had the chance to chat with someone from animal farms in Norwood, Ontario, about the potential for insect farming in Canada in North America, it was great to hear about some of the potential for insects as a protein source here, but also some of the challenges to making that a reality. Thanks again for taking the time to talk to me, Jarrod, can you tell me a bit about Entomo Farms? How did it begin, and when did it begin?
Jarrod
In 2013, my brothers who had been growing bugs, as they say, for bait for people to go fishing with or other different kinds of bugs, if people have hobbies, and they, they have reptiles at home like bearded dragons, or lizards, those reptiles need to eat, so my brothers used to grow those reptiles their food. And my background is in health care. I'm a chiropractor and you know certainly learned a lot about the relationship between what people eat and how healthy they feel. And around 2013, some large government organisations some names you may have heard of like the United Nations, or the Food and Agriculture Organization, they put a paper out, it's a technical term called a white paper. And they basically talked about how the insect can play such a great role in feeding the food we eat. So feeding our fish and feeding our cattle and feeding our chicken, as well as a wonderful food source for people. And we can get into why that's the case in a little bit. So we put our heads together, and we raised some money. And we basically started what became North America's few first human grade edible insect farm.
Alex
Wow, that's, that's impressive. So it started from mainly an insect raising operation for pets, and then it moved towards this more human-focus . Now, we, you talked a bit about some of the reasons why you guys started it, but I was wondering if you could tease those out a bit more. So what are some of the social or maybe the environmental reasons why you're growing insects for food?
Jarrod
Yeah, so I think, you know, at first, the main reason that those big government organisations and others were talking about it was from a very environmental perspective. And really, you know, and that, in general, like we say, life, you know, there's nothing wrong with moderation. But unfortunately, the way in which meat is produced on an industrial level, is that unfortunately, because I also love a good hamburger is very unsustainable. So, you know, we are learning a lot about climate change., and, you know, scientists all over the world are talking about climate change. And unfortunately, one of the great contributors toward climate change is the meat industry, the cow and beef and, you know, general meat industry on an industrial scale, you know, artisanal farmers, you know, raising some cattle that that can be butchered locally, is very important. You know, cows are called rudiments we need animals like that, that eat grass and help grow our green lands. We need those green lands to trap carbon. So Buffalo and bison and cows and all those kinds of animals, where they're from locally, they're really important to have. But, the way it exists today is that we have to cut down a lot of rain forest, to grow a lot of grain to feed all these cows that unfortunately, can't turn the grain into food that we eat very well. So they convert about 1/10 of the grains they eat into food we can eat. So we have to cut down a lot of forest to grow those grains, whereas crickets, for example, can actually convert almost all of that grain into food we eat. So if you feed a cow 10 kilograms of food, you only may get one kilogram of meat protein. Whereas with the crickets, if you feed 10 kilograms of food, you'll get up to 10 kilograms of that meat protein if you will. So we would have to basically cut down you know, 90% less forests, for argument's sake, as an example. These numbers are not exact, they're just representative. But they're close, you can see that it would be a much more efficient way of farming protein. Later, let's also talk about the fact that the crickets, for example, are not just protein, they're full of a lot of other kinds of nutrients. But to finish the story, is that once we started to actually learn about what were in insects, like crickets, but turns out that they're actually very, very, very healthy. And that is the part that's really I think driving people's interest is that, you know, if you sprinkle a bit of powder in your pancake, or a muffin mix or something like that, you can really actually get a tonne of health benefits from that as well. So if you care about your health, and you care about the planet, then and you love delicious food, then then you know, insects are a great option for you.
Alex
Absolutely, and you talked a bit about crickets. Are there any other common insects that are used for human consumption?
Jarrod
Yeah, mealworms. I mean, there's 1000s of species of insects that are fit for human consumption. And they all offer different nutritional value and tastes and all kinds of different stuff. But the primary ones, and I kind of think of it when you think of sushi that most people's introduction to sushi is the salmon roll and the tuna roll. So in entomophagy, which is the technical term for eating insects, I feel like the mealworm and the cricket is the metaphor, the analogy to the salmon and the tuna.
Alex
Great. Now, if you would be able to take us a bit through the process, so what do you feed the crickets and going through the supply chain? Where do you tend to sell these?
Jarrod
So the crickets, basically, what we do is we retrofit old chicken barns, so they're about 20,000 square feet. And we have kind of these condos, these cardboard structures that the crickets live in, and then their feed trays on top with a watering tray. And it's basic grain diet four basic grains and some water and they have ideal conditions for them to live in because we want them to thrive and grow and you know what's called maximising the yield. And then most of them are harvested, some are left to lay eggs, and then we incubate those eggs, grow those eggs and start the cycle all over again.
Alex
Thank you, and where do you sell the products?
Jarrod
So we are really a wholesaler, we do, we're an ingredient wholesaler, if you will. So other people buy our products. There are guys making pet food with it, dog treats, bars, chips, crackers, protein powders. And for us most exciting the last year Loblaws under the President's Choice brand, President's Choice now sells our cricket powder in Loblaws, and quite a few Shoppers Drug Marts and other super centres that Loblaws runs.
Alex
Congratulations. That's great.
Jarrod
Thank you.
Alex
Now, we talked a lot about the benefits of insect farming. Are there any challenges that you've come across in terms of things like energy or water usage problems, in addition to maybe some consumer attitude barriers?
Jarrod
Yeah, I mean, no, I think in any what's called you know, animal husbandry or learning how to raise an animal, whether it's a cow or a hog or chicken or cricket, trial and error is important research and development. You know, those other industries have had decades and decades of research and mechanisation and industrialization and perfection. And this is still pretty new. So the challenges are really just in perfecting the perfect recipe that allows you to go from the egg to the adult in the most efficient way. But the challenges around feed inputs or energy are not big at all, because so little is required.
Alex
Thank you. And just one last question very broadly. And a general question, is insect farming a viable source of protein for the future, in your opinion?
Jarrod
Well, not only is it viable Alex, but according to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, if we don't do it, then our food we eat is going to be extremely challenged. The planet is going to be extremely challenged, the environment is going to be extremely challenged. You know, I often say with a background as a doctor is that we shouldn't ask doctors for their opinions. We should ask doctors for what the best evidence suggest we should do. We should really allow data information, objective empirical information to drive decision making when when it's important when it's not subjects of love or other things like that. So, you know, the data, the objective, the scientists are saying that we need to do this. And the great irony is that it actually is of great benefit, you know that the analogy I have, which I think is a pretty cool story is that, imagine the only liquid that we could drink was pop, really sugary, hyper processed pop, that was bad for us. And everybody loved it. And that's really all we drank. But it wasn't good for our health, and it wasn't good for the planet. And one day, some kids went up into a mountain and they find a stream, and they discovered this stuff called water. And they bring it down and they say, you know, these people in the third world are these people in these other places that it's hard for them to afford pop, and it's hard for them to get pop, maybe this water would be good for them. And of course, the idea is that water is good for everybody, we should all be drinking water. Litres of it a day. It's not just for rich people, or poor people, everybody needs water. And I would argue that if you're looking at food and your health, and you want to live a long, healthy life, that you should consider insects in your diet, because the science and the data is saying that as a food as an ingredient, this is really, really, really healthy stuff. And it can be made to taste absolutely delicious. It's really no different than a shrimp or a lobster or something like that, that most people are familiar with that they like, and that we can do better for ourselves, we can do better for our planet. And we can do better for each other by simply having more choice around the kind of protein that we can get. But like I said, it's not just about protein with insects. They're full of very good fibre. They're very rich in iron and B 12. They're very rich in antioxidants. So it's really a whole functional food. It's not just protein. It's much, much more than that.
Alex
Well, I think that's a fantastic spot to stop. Thank you so much again, Jarrod, I really appreciate it.
Evan
The first insect farm for human consumption in North America. That's awesome. Great to hear also from Jarrod about some of the reasons why insects are being promoted by organisations such as the United Nations and the Food and Agriculture Organization. And also, it was fascinating to hear a little bit about how to raise crickets on a large scale.
Alex
Absolutely. A lot of research is exploring what we talked about as insects incredible feed conversion efficiency. That is how much feed in weight it takes to raise the same amount of insect protein as say pig or cow protein. The research that I've read puts insects as twice as efficient as broiler chickens or pigs, and actually up to six times as efficient as cattle.
Evan
What other variables do researchers consider when looking at the sustainability of a protein source Alex?
Alex
Well, some look at water and land use, which also places insects favourably next to other protein sources, where insects seem to have more of a negative impact is in energy use, because it costs a lot of energy to transport the feed to raise them. I mean, after all insects have to eat too. And also to raise them indoors. Think of the electricity it would take to heat a massive facility in winter. Another key thing to remember is that these values change based on the type of insect, for example, cricket, or mealworm, their life stage as a larva, pupa or beetle, and what the intended use is for the insect. Regarding this last point, it's really important. When we grow insects for human consumption, they need a specific standard of diet, for example, high quality oats and fresh carrots and spinach versus growing insects to consume human waste, which doesn't require a fresh high quality feed source at all. In other words, the higher the standard for raising insects, the higher the environmental impact,
Evan
Super good points. A lot of hype around insects isn't just as a source of food, but also for fish and other livestock, as well as a way of dealing with our own waste management. So thinking about these two interviews, it seems to me that we have actually two different opinions here. On one hand, Jarrod argues that insects aren't just a fad, but are required for a more sustainable food system. On the other hand, Natalia thinks insects will, well, probably be a bit of a part of future diets, but not a major bit.
Alex
Yes, there's a lot to juggle the scientific evidence around the need for us to consume things differently, and also to consume different things even maybe, and our own individual desires and preferences and budgets.
Evan
Well Alex thanks very much. It sounds like insects are likely to be part of our dinner tables in the future, but we probably aren't going to see it anytime in the immediate future. Is that sort of where you're coming down at?
Alex
Yes, I think that sounds about right.
Evan
Thanks very much for listening. Once again, my name is Evan Fraser. And this is an initiative of the Feeding 9 Billion programme hosted at the University of Guelph. I'm the director of the Arrell Food Institute and this is part of an ongoing series of educational material designed to educate consumers, the public and students about how to create a healthier, safer and more sustainable food system.
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